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Thread: Maybe eating meat actually will kill you.

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    Default Maybe eating meat actually will kill you.

    I read about this documentary called Forks Over Knives while reading about a book called The China Study, which looks at correlations between levels of meat consumption and diseases. Some of you might find it worth watching. It'll take an hour and 30 minutes to watch, but you might find it beneficial. And then again, you might not.

    http://documentaryaddict.com/Forks+O...cumentary.html


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    Huffington Post Interview



    Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D.




    "If the truth be known coronary artery disease is a toothless paper tiger that need never ever exist and if it does exist it need never ever progress."




    Question: What is coronary heart disease?

    Answer: Coronary heart disease is the leading killer of woman and men in western civilization. It is predicated to become the #1 global disease burden by 2020.

    It consists of an inflammatory buildup of blockages in arteries to the heart muscle. These blockages are made of fat, cholesterol, calcium, and inflammatory cells. Blockages can become severe enough to cause symptoms such as shortness of breath or chest pain (angina). When blockages suddenly become complete, the portion of heart muscle fed by that blocked artery is now deprived of oxygen and nutrients, thus it is injured or now dies. This is a heart attack. The patient may survive or succumb if the event is accompanied by a fatal heart rhythm.


    Question: Who develops heart disease?


    Answer: Everyone eating the typical western diet. In autopsy studies of our GI’s who died in the Vietnam and Korean wars almost 80% at an average age of 20 years, had disease that could be seen without a microscope. Forty years later in 1999, a study of young persons between the ages of 16-34 years who have died of accidents, homicides and suicides, finds the disease is now ubiquitous.


    Question: What is the cause of the disease?


    Answer: It is the typical western diet of processed oils, dairy, and meat which destroys the lifejacket of our blood vessels known as our endothelial cells. This cell layer is a one cell thick lining of all of our blood vessels. Endothelial cells manufacture a magical protective molecule of gas called nitric oxide, which protects our blood vessels. It keeps our blood flowing smoothly, it is the strongest dilator (widener), of our blood vessels, it inhibits the formation of blockages (plaques), and t inhibits inflammation.


    Question: With such natural protection why do we ever develop heart disease?


    Answer: Every western meal of processed vegetable oils, dairy products, and meat (including chicken and fish) injures these endothelial cells. As individuals consume theses damaging products throughout their lives, they have fewer functioning endothelial cells remaining and thus less of the protective nitric oxide. Without enough nitric oxide the plaque blockages build up and grow creating eventually heart disease and strokes.


    Question: Can it be stopped or even reversed?


    Answer: Yes. First we must look at the lessons learned from cultures where there is a virtual absence of coronary artery heart disease such as rural China, the Papua Highlands of New Guinea, Central Africa, and the Tarahumara Indians of Northern Mexico. Their nutrition is plant based without oil.


    Beginning in 1985 I initiated a study of seriously ill coronary artery disease patients. Their nutrition became plant based without oil. Their cholesterol levels plummeted. Their angina disappeared. Their weight dropped. I have reported this study at 5 years, 12 years, and 16 years, in the peer reviewed scientific literature and again beyond 20 years in my book Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease. In some of the patients we had follow up angiograms (x-rays) of previously blocked arteries demonstrating striking disease reversal, which is a testament to my often quoted statement “The truth be known coronary artery disease is a toothless paper tiger that need never exist and if it does exist

    It need never progress. The greatest gift to these patients is the increasing recognition that they are the locus of control for their disease – not some pill or procedure. They have made themselves heart attack proof and lose the greatest fear of all heart patients and their families – when will the next heart attack occur?


    Question: What about drugs, stents, and heart bypass surgery?


    Answer: Admittedly in the midst of a heart attack a stent or bypass may be live saving, however, for the remaining 90% studies confirm that they do not prevent future heart attacks or prolong life. They are associated with significant complications such as hemorrhage, heart attack, stroke, cognitive decline, depression, and death. The benefits erode with the passage of time as the stents and bypasses may themselves develop blockage.


    Some drugs may decrease blood pressure and the heart workload. Others interfere with clotting which helps a stent remain open. Statin drugs lower cholesterol. Noneof these drugs or interventions addresses the basic causation of disease and not surprisingly the disease progresses with the need for more drugs, stents, and repeat bypasses.


    Question: Why aren’t physicians using nutrition therapy?


    Answer: Most physicians have no training or understanding of the power of nutrition. In a busy practice they would not have the time for it. It is my belief that physicians must accord the plant based lifestyle transition its due. Every patient with cardiovascular disease should be referred to a physician or nurse practitioner with the knowledge and expertise in these counseling skills.


    Question: But I understand physicians don’t feel patients will make this transition. How come?


    Answer: Nutrition counseling is a skill which physicians don’t possess. Of all the encounters a patient with cardiovascular disease experiences, perhaps the least time and lowest priority is nutritional counseling. I see many patients with heart disease who recount that nutrition was never even mentioned. It is therefore unlikely that the patient feels that nutrition is important.


    Question: What is that you do differently?


    Answer: In an intensive 5 hour counseling session for a group of heart patients my first priority is to eliminate the mystery of what causes their disease. It has not been stress, or genes. It is their western diet of processed oil, dairy, and meat. Hypertension, diabetes, and smoking must be controlled but food trumps all. I spend at least an hour defining the protective role of endothelial cells and nitric oxide functioning as the ultimate guardians of our blood vessels. They quickly understand that their lifetime of ingesting these harmful products has totally overwhelmed and destroyed their endothelium to an extent where it is unable to protect them. They fully grasp that they must forever eliminate ingesting foods that will further destroy their already compromised endothelium. They understand heart disease is a food borne illness.


    Question: Where is the good news?


    Answer: They understand that they can halt their disease. They are presented with my scientific articles demonstrating reversal of disease. They learn that anginal chest pain may diminish or disappear within 10-14 days in some patients while others may take longer. We share our data confirming reversal of carotid artery disease to the brain, coronary artery disease of the heart, peripheral vascular disease in the extremities, and the reversal of erectile dysfunction. They are made to appreciate how rapidly and powerfully the endothelial function may be restored. The most significant message in our counseling is patient awareness that they are empowered to be the locus of control of their disease.


    Question: What is your criticism of the present management of heart disease through drug stents and bypass surgery?


    Answer: It is expensive, dangerous, and ineffective. None of these approaches addresses the factors that cause the disease. A doctor would never treat poison ivy without advising the patient to avoid exposure to poison ivy plants. Sadly the usual treatment of cardiovascular disease almost never includes hours of patient counseling so they may completely eliminate the foods which are injuring their endothelium. Stents may block, bypass veins shut down, drug doses increase, and blood vessel disease worsen. The present cost of this non-treatment of heart disease is unsustainable even in our wealthy nation.


    Question: Dr. Esselstyn, are you a threat to the stenting and bypass industry?


    Answer: Not really. Stents and bypass surgery in an emergency setting are absolutely lifesaving. However, for non-emergency situations an intensive lifestyle trial of 3-6 months would eliminate the need for most interventions. It is of interest that when physicians and some interventional cardiologist themselves develop the disease they come knocking at my door.


    Question: What forces are lined against you?


    Answer: The government, drug industry, and some of my own profession. The USDA every five years produces a food triangle which promotes the very foods which guarantee that millions of Americans will perish.


    The drug industry has a $21 billion dollar income from statin drugs alone. The stent manufacturers make billions more. Neither of these companies would want this epidemic resolved.


    Physicians who perform stents and bypass surgery earn millions and are hardly clamoring for fewer patients.


    Question: Any final thoughts?


    Answer: When people learn to eat plant based to eliminate heart disease it could inaugurate a seismic revolution in health. Other diseases that resolve include obesity, hypertension, stroke, heart attacks, gall stones, diverticulitis, asthma, osteoporosis, allergies, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, lupus, and a marked decrease in the common western cancers of breast, prostate, colon, endometrial, ovarian, and pancreatic.


    To paraphrase John Kennedy “Ask not what your country can do for your health, ask what you can do for your health.”


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    My grandmother ate whatever she liked in moderation and stayed healthy enough to live independently in her own house till the age of 98. She loved her sour cream and onion Pringles to the very end...

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    "Come on, you sons of bitches-do you want to live forever?"

    (Attributed to Gunnery Sergeant Dan Daly, USMC, Belleau Wood, June 1918.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesK View Post
    "Come on, you sons of bitches-do you want to live forever?"

    (Attributed to Gunnery Sergeant Dan Daly, USMC, Belleau Wood, June 1918.)
    Come on, everybody knows that line is from Conan's girlfriend, Valeria:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9ZK...tailpage#t=56s
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinrider View Post
    My grandmother ate whatever she liked in moderation and stayed healthy enough to live independently in her own house till the age of 98. She loved her sour cream and onion Pringles to the very end...
    She was a very lucky woman Jim. There is an increasing body of scientific evidence that the current western diet, high in animal fat and protein, as well as refined carbohydrates and oils, is causing an epidemic of certain cancers, heart disease, oesteoperosis, diabetes, and a host of other illnesses. Check out the work of T Colin Campbell., as well as Esselstyn whose interview I posted above. Campbell wrote 'The China Study', a book which has stirred up an extraordinary amount of controversy and debate, which he is winning hands down. Esselstyn, like Campbell, is a very highly regarded man in his field. Their scientific evidence is compelling.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    She was a very lucky woman Jim.
    Good genes, both sides of my family usually live at least into their high 80s and often 90s, with a 102 year old great grandfather in the mix as well.

    Don't forget that stress also causes cancer. Try to relax and not worry so much about what you eat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    She was a very lucky woman Jim. There is an increasing body of scientific evidence that the current western diet, high in animal fat and protein, as well as refined carbohydrates and oils, is causing an epidemic of certain cancers, heart disease, oesteoperosis, diabetes, and a host of other illnesses. Check out the work of T Colin Campbell., as well as Esselstyn whose interview I posted above. Campbell wrote 'The China Study', a book which has stirred up an extraordinary amount of controversy and debate, which he is winning hands down. Esselstyn, like Campbell, is a very highly regarded man in his field. Their scientific evidence is compelling.
    Dualta, thanks for the article.
    In 2013 we have all the information about the fact that diet rich of meat,cheese and saturated fat will increase drastically the chance of heart desises ,high cholesterol and so on...it is not about believing in it or not, it is about accepting or not....
    There are going to be always exceptional cases of people smoke and eat unhealthy and still live long.. but the percentage is so small that doesn't really count in any statistic..

    But food is a very sensitive topics....( see obesity ,anoressia) give dependency,and attachments to the taste to the point that we can convince ourself that what we eat is good for us even if provable unhealthy...
    It all goes to the point of how much we really care about ourself and how interested we are into change our habits ( not easy at all, I know)...

    We should all get responsibility of ourself and be prepar to face consequences of our acts..

    By the way, I haven't see much of update about some friends in the forum who were starting a diet....
    Update please;-)!!!!!

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    "I could quit drinking, I could quit smoking, I could quit womanizing
    and live to be 100 years old but then it would seem like 200."
    - Sir Winston Churchill


    He still made it to 90.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinrider View Post


    "I could quit drinking, I could quit smoking, I could quit womanizing
    and live to be 100 years old but then it would seem like 200."
    - Sir Winston Churchill


    He still made it to 90.
    mmm.. Now I start to notice some similarities between you guys...... ;-)
    Go ahead man, just eat and drink whatever you like and enjoy life as it comes!!

    Don't listen to this stupid "bullshit" about eating healthy ...and don't exercise, it is also" boring"....
    Seat,drink,eat fat and smoke,but if u look down and u don't see anymore "him", then you should start worry..;-)
    Ciao!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinrider View Post
    Good genes, both sides of my family usually live at least into their high 80s and often 90s, with a 102 year old great grandfather in the mix as well.

    Don't forget that stress also causes cancer. Try to relax and not worry so much about what you eat.
    I'm not so sure about stress having anything to do cancer. But Campbell (1987) argues that there is data demonstrating that animal protein has a determining effect on carcinogensis in certain cancers, i.e. bowel, prostate and breast cancers. He points to casein, the main protein in milk, as being the worst offender.


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    I read an article recently that suggests it's not red meat itself that causes cancer but the molecules produced by gut bacteria when the meat is digested.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...eries-bacteria

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    I'm not so sure about stress having anything to do cancer. But Campbell (1987) argues that there is data demonstrating that animal protein has a determining effect on carcinogensis in certain cancers, i.e. bowel, prostate and breast cancers. He points to casein, the main protein in milk, as being the worst offender.
    1987? Really? I guess science hasn't figured anything out in the past quarter-century. Anyway, the studies mentioned in that paper have the same old problems common to most nutrition research (some of which, to Campbell's credit, he explicitly acknowledges). These include the difficulty of accurately recording what the subjects actually ate, the ability to tease out the impact of one nutrient from among many others, and the likely correlation of health with other, non-nutrition factors like total caloric intake, exercise level, income level, smoking, genetics, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diabolik View Post
    In 2013 we have all the information about the fact that diet rich of meat,cheese and saturated fat will increase drastically the chance of heart desises ,high cholesterol and so on...
    Actually, no, we don't. I think (and some scientists would agree) that the real killers are sugar and carbs, especially refined carbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Jinbaiquerre View Post
    1987? Really? I guess science hasn't figured anything out in the past quarter-century. Anyway, the studies mentioned in that paper have the same old problems common to most nutrition research (some of which, to Campbell's credit, he explicitly acknowledges). These include the difficulty of accurately recording what the subjects actually ate, the ability to tease out the impact of one nutrient from among many others, and the likely correlation of health with other, non-nutrition factors like total caloric intake, exercise level, income level, smoking, genetics, and so on.
    Campbell undertook what was described as 'the Grand Prix' of epidemeology', called The China Study. You can read all about it online. He reported the findings in 2003 and wrote a best selling book of the same name, which I have just finished reading. I'll go with his methods and findings, rather than your layman's critique of them. He concluded that animal protein is a very potent cancer trigger, and has demonstrated the link with considerable expertise.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    Campbell undertook what was described as 'the Grand Prix' of epidemeology', called The China Study. You can read all about it online. He reported the findings in 2003 and wrote a best selling book of the same name, which I have just finished reading. I'll go with his methods and findings, rather than your layman's critique of them. He concluded that animal protein is a very potent cancer trigger, and has demonstrated the link with considerable expertise.
    My cat lived to age 20 eating only animal protein. That's 97 in human years...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Jinbaiquerre View Post
    Actually, no, we don't. I think (and some scientists would agree) that the real killers are sugar and carbs, especially refined carbs.
    What utter nonsense! The link between meat and dairy and heart disease is as well established as it can be. Watch this presentation by the man quoted in my first if you doubt this. Not only has he demonstrated that heart disease can be arrested by adopted a plant-based diet, it can be reversed and cured by the same method.



    Or you can watch is TED presentation:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    Campbell undertook what was described as 'the Grand Prix' of epidemeology', called The China Study. You can read all about it online. He reported the findings in 2003 and wrote a best selling book of the same name, which I have just finished reading. I'll go with his methods and findings, rather than your layman's critique of them.
    Oh, by all means don't take my word for it. But I can link to studies and researchers, too:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lustig

    Here's one of the studies he cites:

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/76/5/911.long

    He's got a bestselling book, too:

    http://www.amazon.com/Fat-Chance-Bea.../dp/159463100X

    And although one wouldn't know it from your comments, there are plenty of scientists and studies out there undermining or offering different interpretations of the China Study's findings, "Grand Prix" or not. Here's a collection of peer-reviewed studies at odds with various parts of Cambell's magnum opus:

    http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/07/31/one...and-re-bashed/
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    Everyone has its own believes... As I always do, I like to experiment things on person..
    I had time when I was smoking (not sigaret, u know what I mean..;-) and l thought was good for me... I stopped and I realized how bad was smoking..
    I use to eat lots of meat, salami, prosciutto and so on.. after I almost gave up complitly on it, I realized how better I feel now.. That apply also to sugary things, cake and other unessesary bad stuff..
    So onece again, everyone should experiment different things for understand the difference in their body and mind..
    Then take a conscious choice...
    Good luck, long healthy life to all of us!!

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    Hey Dualta, you're not a closet Veggie by any chance are you

    Personally I have never understood Veggies, it's unnatural, our stomachs were designed to process meat not various forms of grass like cows that have 4 stomachs for this purpose. The only reason homo-sapiens rose to the top of the evolutionary ladder on this planet is because of the protein in MEAT. Before that we were like the rest of the dumb animals.

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