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Thread: Maybe eating meat actually will kill you.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Jinbaiquerre View Post
    Oh, by all means don't take my word for it. But I can link to studies and researchers, too:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lustig

    Here's one of the studies he cites:

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/76/5/911.long

    He's got a bestselling book, too:

    http://www.amazon.com/Fat-Chance-Bea.../dp/159463100X

    And although one wouldn't know it from your comments, there are plenty of scientists and studies out there undermining or offering different interpretations of the China Study's findings, "Grand Prix" or not. Here's a collection of peer-reviewed studies at odds with various parts of Cambell's magnum opus:

    http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/07/31/one...and-re-bashed/

    I didn't say that fructose is blameless, and Esselstyn above names it as a bad boy too , but I don't see Lustig arguing against Campbell's assertions.

    Secondly, the debate between Minger and Campbell has been well covered, and her analysis has been been well and truly set aside. She has also courted serious controversy by removing and then reposting a devastating critique of her methods in analysing Campbell's work by someone who knows how research works.


    I think that if you look into this a little more you might find that you'll have to change your mind about what constitutes healthy nutrition. Brussels sprouts anyone?


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesK View Post
    Hey Dualta, you're not a closet Veggie by any chance are you

    Personally I have never understood Veggies, it's unnatural, our stomachs were designed to process meat not various forms of grass like cows that have 4 stomachs for this purpose. The only reason homo-sapiens rose to the top of the evolutionary ladder on this planet is because of the protein in MEAT. Before that we were like the rest of the dumb animals.

    I'm a vegan James. I don't fuck about matey, and I wouldn't know what the inside of closet looks like. And I love your science there chum. That's convinced me no end!


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    I'm a vegan James.
    You might be interested in this link.

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/27...-a-vegan-diet/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinrider View Post
    You might be interested in this link.

    http://www.livestrong.com/article/27...-a-vegan-diet/
    I've nothing to worry about there Jim. I lost mine years ago! But I reckon the article is a nonsense. It's true that a bad vegan diet, like a bad non-vegan diet, can result in nutritional deficiencies, but protein tends not to be one of them. It has been estimated that, on average, we need 9-10% protein in our diets, which is exactly the amount that plants, on average, give. This myth that you need to eat meat for protein has been well and truly debunked. There are even many very successful vegan athletes. A well planned plant-based diet is quite definitely the healthiest diet you could possibly eat.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    Secondly, the debate between Minger and Campbell has been well covered, and her analysis has been been well and truly set aside.
    That's nice, except the link I provided was to a page listing various peer-reviewed studies, not to Minger's own analysis.

    For what it's worth, though, the links you provide to show that Minger's analysis has been "well and truly set aside" are dated July 2010, but her final, complete analysis only went up in August 2010:

    http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/08/06/fin...response-html/

    She lengthened it primarily in response to criticism from the Campbell side. In particular, she defends her supposed rookie-mistake reliance on univariate correlations -- the only real criticism anyone in the Campbell camp actually makes of her analysis -- by noting that:

    Every time I employed a univariate correlation, it was because Campbell had done so first, under the same circumstances. Every. Time.
    I am not aware of a subsequent response by the Campbell camp to this August 2010 post. And I admit I haven't read the China Study or the Minger critique enough to begin stacking them up against each other and determining which side makes the better argument. But it's not the case that your July 2010 links were the final word in the debate.

    I will agree with you completely on one thing, though: It's lame of Minger to delete someone's critical comment, if that's indeed what she did. She should have let the comment stand and responded to it.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Jinbaiquerre View Post
    That's nice, except the link I provided was to a page listing various peer-reviewed studies, not to Minger's own analysis.

    For what it's worth, though, the links you provide to show that Minger's analysis has been "well and truly set aside" are dated July 2010, but her final, complete analysis only went up in August 2010:

    http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/08/06/fin...response-html/

    She lengthened it primarily in response to criticism from the Campbell side. In particular, she defends her supposed rookie-mistake reliance on univariate correlations -- the only real criticism anyone in the Campbell camp actually makes of her analysis -- by noting that:

    I am not aware of a subsequent response by the Campbell camp to this August 2010 post. And I admit I haven't read the China Study or the Minger critique enough to begin stacking them up against each other and determining which side makes the better argument. But it's not the case that your July 2010 links were the final word in the debate.

    I will agree with you completely on one thing, though: It's lame of Minger to delete someone's critical comment, if that's indeed what she did. She should have let the comment stand and responded to it.
    She lists some peer reviewed studies without going into the details of them, and then attacks the process of peer review, which is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to defend her own lack of expertise in the field. And she even dismisses his book, The China Study on the basis that it's not peer reviewed, when in fact it's full of citations to peer reviewed articles. It seems to me, however, that the science in The China Study is pretty sound stuff.

    Of course there are people who disagree with Campbell and Esselstyn, but I've seen nothing yet that has turned me off it, and you haven't shown me anything either. My mind is not closed on the issue, even though I have an ethical bias, so post what you think does the job and I'll read it fairly.

    I came to vegetarianism and then veganism from an ethical standpoint despite having reservations on both occasions due to health considerations. I learned that the only nutrient that is not present in a regular, reliable quantity from modernly farmed vegetables is the vitamin B12, but I learned that it is in abundance in dairy and eggs, so I went ahead with a vegetarian diet, forgoing meat of all kinds. Since then, I was constantly inclined towards veganism, but I had really serious concerns about the health implications of it, but after doing a lot of reading, I decided to take the plunge. It was only afterwards that someone I know mentioned the The China Study a few times, so I decided to buy and read it. To be honest, I was really set aback by the quality of the book. I would certainly recommend it to anyone. I would also strongly recommend a documentary called Forks Over Knives, which grew out of the book. It looks at the work of Campbell and Esselstyn in a broader sense, but again, with compelling arguments, backed up with what seems to be very sound science. Both these men have been big hitters in their fields for a very long time, and neither man, or their work, can be readily dismissed.


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  7. #27

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    Thanks for caring about us Dualta
    But i think riding a bike is much more risky than eating meat, in
    the long run.

    Will watch the vid when i get some free time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jav View Post
    Thanks for caring about us Dualta
    But i think riding a bike is much more risky than eating meat, in
    the long run.

    Will watch the vid when i get some free time.
    Yes Jav, it's a contradiction for sure, but, as I posted above, I originally chose my diet for ethical reasons, as opposed to health reasons. Now I'm glad I did for those very reasons. And ultimately, it's about how I feel now, rather than in the future, as now is what matters most, and the future might have other plans for me than those I hope for.

    After being a vegetarian for a few years, I went vegan in January, and last month I went to the doctor to have a blood check to see if my vitamin B12 levels were ok. He had to get a full blood test done because tests for only B12 aren't done, and I was very pleasantly surprised. All of the results were spot on, accept for a slightly low haemoglobin reading (low iron), which has been put right with increased spinach intake (Popeye was right all along!). The doctor expressed pleasant surprise at the readings and has lost his concerns about my diet.

    Since I cut out dairy and eggs from my diet I've lost 5kg from my already slight 65kg, and that was without exercise (I got injured running in January and was out for 5 months), and a diet made up largely of carbs. My staples are porridge (every morning with a banana, walnuts and soy milk), potatoes, brown rice, all sorts of beans, lentils, green leafy veg, broccoli, carrots, tomatoes, peppers, tofu, miso, bananas, oranges, and bucket loads of salad. I cook my own curries from base ingredients, as well as chillies and pasta sauces, although pasta is kept to a minimum. I don't eat bread every day, and never white bread. My wife bakes regularly, especially bagels, without dairy. I've also learned how to make granola using oatmeal and beet syrup, with sunflower seeds and dried fruit.

    Recently, my injury healed and I started running again. After 5 months of no exercise, and a vegan diet, I nailed 5km on my first run, losing very little speed, and I've been doing 10km runs regularly over this last two weeks, four in the last 10 days, with a 12km this morning. I feel awesome. Full of energy and light as hell on my feet. I also eat my fill at every meal, and I snack often, but on nuts and fruit, and the odd home-made bagel topped with dressed avocado. I've also started weight training again, and I hope to increase muscle in my upper body from that with protein from all of the above. It can be done.

    And thanks, for thanking me for my concern. In all honesty, it's the very reason why I'm posting this, i.e. I like the folks on this forum, and I want to share this in concern that if some of you don't ease up on eating all that crap you eat, I'll have nobody to wind up or lecture in my old age, especially Justin with his Atkins nonsense (Atkins had heart disease and hypertension when he died). I know some guys have struggled with weight, and that's why I posted the stuff above. It works, and some of you might find that you want to give it a go.


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  9. #29
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    Atkins (and ketogenic diets in general) are not nonsense. After I lost 25kg on a low-carb diet a while back, I had a physical exam done and my doctor couldn't believe how all my indicators had improved. Cholesterol, blood pressure, triglycerides, you name it. My one anecdote is not scientific data, but there are plenty of studies out there in support of the merits of low-carb diets:

    http://www.nmsociety.org/low-carb-research.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    Atkins had heart disease and hypertension when he died
    Again, one person's anecdote is not data. But FWIW, Atkins, who was in generally good shape for a 72-year-old man when he died (by hitting his head on the ground in a fall) developed cardiomyopathy from a viral infection, not arteriosclerosis from fatty foods. And hypertension can have many causes, including genetic.

    Anyway, keep up the good work. Sounds like you only have 60kg left to go!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    Since I cut out dairy and eggs from my diet I've lost 5kg from my already slight 65kg, and that was without exercise.
    I reckon with some exercise you can get down to 55. Try Prancercise, much easier on your joints than running.

    Last edited by Twinrider; 19-06-13 at 04:17 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualta View Post
    Since I cut out dairy and eggs from my diet I've lost 5kg from my already slight 65kg, and that was without exercise.
    Holy crap, Dualta! You'd better start putting on some weight:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/healt...thier-1.964633
    Obesity paradox: new study finds being mildly overweight is healthier
    Muiris Houston
    Last Updated: Tuesday, January 22, 2013, 00:00

    The year’s first edition of the Journal of the American Medical Association brought some unexpected good news for those of us who struggle with our weight. Researchers from the Centres of Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported that people who are overweight and mildly obese have lower mortality rates than individuals who have a normal weight.
    It's still not too late for you to change your ways...
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    As a grade 1 obese person enjoying the highest life expectancy I find it very sad to see people like Dualta and Diabolik nibbling themselves into an early grave.

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    every time time u have to run few meter or move your body more then from seating to standing and u find yourself grasping for breath..
    every time u will be at the beach showing your one pack..of....;-)
    every time you will have stomach problems, tiredness, sleepiness ...
    every time you have to go to the doctor or hospital, because U dont feel well..
    every time you look at your belly and wishing was smaller, with some visible muscles...
    every time you like some cloths, but they just dont fit right

    every time..think about me that I dont have all this problems !!:-)


    I am 43 and I feel great !!
    I feel so free in my movement ,agile, light..
    I go running, practicing Yoga, recently started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and girlfriend seams VERY happy about my "energy".....
    I never go to doctor ( because I dont have the need) except for annual check
    I almost never feel tired..I sleep 6 hours a day and I am fine..

    I keep hearing I look so much younger then my age..that I look so healthy.. do they tell you same thing ?..

    In Italy we say.." there is no more deaf person then a person who doesnt want to hear..." does this sound familiar to you?...

    I feel like this thread is kind of trying to prove that each one is right..coming up with links, comment and counter opinions..

    Friends.. if you feel great ,healthy and happy as I do, why trying to convince other that they are "wrong"?...
    follow what you feel is right for you and enjoy the consequences ,bad or good they will be


    Live your life as you wish !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diabolik View Post
    I keep hearing I look so much younger then my age..that I look so healthy.. do they tell you same thing ?..
    !
    All the time! Did you ever notice that you have much more gray hair than me despite being 7 years younger? Maybe try eating more preservatives! ;>

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    Man.. my reply was not with quote.. so it was not direct to you..(I dont think I even mention your name..) but apparently I have touched a right spot..

    anyhow U look soo young my friend, with all your black hairs......and the rest....That must be the secret why all the lady run behind you ...its the black hair !!!!

    keep eating your preservatives...and you will see how good will do to you!!

    Ok time to go teach some sweet ladies.....
    Ciao!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Jinbaiquerre View Post
    Holy crap, Dualta! You'd better start putting on some weight:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/healt...thier-1.964633


    It's still not too late for you to change your ways...

    I'll take my chances with being a skinny ass! I suppose an added benefit of being overweight that there's more protection when an lardy ass hits the ground in a spill as opposed to a skinny ass like mine!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinrider View Post
    As a grade 1 obese person enjoying the highest life expectancy I find it very sad to see people like Dualta and Diabolik nibbling themselves into an early grave.
    The only things I've ever nibbled are nipples and earlobes. These Italians think they're the best lovers in the world, eh? We Irish have foreplay down to a fine art. It's called drink!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinrider View Post
    I reckon with some exercise you can get down to 55. Try Prancercise, much easier on your joints than running.


    LOL! I bet you've got the hips for that Jim....


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    ABC's Diane Sawyer reveals Harvard study that proves red meat vastly increases the chances of an early death. The study is a microcosm of evidence that has become so obvious in large meat-eating nations like the United States, where the rates of cancer and heart disease are skyrocketing.

    Dr. Robert O. Young states: ''Animal flesh is highly acidic and produces nitric, uric, sulphuric and phosphoric acids that cause cancer and death in humans and animals. Since the ingestion of red meat does NOT completely digest or liquify, the undigested meat sits in your stomach, small and large intestines, fermenting and rotting the cover cells of the stomach, stressing out the pancreas, and destroying the delicate intestinal villi causing stomach inflammation, indigestion, acid reflux, stomach ulcers, stomach cancer, diverticulitis, diverticulosis, irritable bowel, colitis, intestinal ulcerations, colon cancer, anemia, Type I diabetes, anxiety, depression, immune disorders, blood disorders, muscle and bone wasting, intravascular coagulation, high blood pressure, heart disease and finally death. I cannot think of one good health reason for eating meat. The ingestion of meat will over-acidfy the blood and then tissues leading to sickness and disease."

    http://abcnews.go.com/Health/w_DietA...5#.UcInESqa_JE


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    The Young quotation is not from the link you provided and none of its claims were supported by the study you linked to. Moreover, the study did not (as you claim) prove anything about eating meat:

    The study could not conclude that red meat consumption caused the increased risk of death, rather that there was an association between the two.
    More generally, I've posted here about why such studies tend to promote alarmist conclusions and can safely be taken with a grain of salt:

    http://www.gaijinriders.com/showthre...ng-to-kill-you

    But regardless, at this point, I have started to sympathize with Sasane, who didn't want to have to dodge a bunch of Tar Pit politics every time he checked into GR for bike info. Congratulations, Dualta, you've now made me feel the same way about nutrition.

    I'm glad you're happy with your vegan lifestyle, but at the same time I'm getting tired of hearing about how awesome you think it is and how everyone else is going to die young, every single time I check GR. Yes, I know I can just ignore your posts, but it would be much nicer if I didn't have to.

    Jav, have you figured out a way for users to filter out updates in subforums they're not interested in yet?
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