Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 70

Thread: KTM Lithium Battery

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    1,592

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    I just installed a KTM Power Parts Lithium 12V battery (773.11.953.000) in my 500EXC. The price is 12,180 yen. The battery is made by JMT.

    My research on the battery revealed it has a cell load balancing control circuit built into the battery. i.e. You don't need to use a special charger. It replaces the standard YTX5L. The main reason for doing this is weight saving:
    YTX5L = 1765g
    JMT HJTZ5S-FP-SW1 = 467g
    Difference = -1298g

    As the battery is mounted high in the bike, just under the seat, I think this is a worthwhile weight saving.

    Regarding chargers, do not use chargers with de-sulphur modes as the high peak voltages can damage lithium batteries. I purchased a cheap 12V, 1.25A charger from Amazon which seems to work fine.
    http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/aw/d/B009...ls_o09_s00_i00

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Shiga, Japan
    Posts
    3,730

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    I got one from Nirinkan for the Duke and wondered if it was just an empty plastic box :o

    No comment on performance yet as I haven't ridden since we got back :(


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    1,592

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    A big performance benefit of Lithium batteries in general is that self discharge is very low. However, a disadvantage is that low temperature performance is not good (voltage drops with temp). If you have problems in winter one technique is to either switch the headlight on for about 30secs (can't do this on my bike without the engine running), or crank the engine over for a few seconds. This raises the internal temp of the battery, resulting in an increase in voltage too. Will need to wait a while (until winter) to find out whether this is an issue...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Sagamihara, Kanagawa
    Posts
    898

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    The other potential snag is bikes with a clock or other "parasitic" draws can run into issues if allowed to set too long w/o trickle
    ...speak softly and pack an obscenely large hammer...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    1,592

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    Quote Originally Posted by DDT Rider View Post
    The other potential snag is bikes with a clock or other "parasitic" draws can run into issues if allowed to set too long w/o trickle
    Yes, that's certainly something you should be aware of if you don't use the bike for long periods and there is a high parasitic load.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    6,953

    Default

    I previously tried running a Shorai battery on the FJR, and whilst being rated actually higher than a comparable PbSO4 battery it DID suffer from cold effects. Also, whilst theoretically being rated at higher CCA it didn't have the staying power (under discharging loads) of a PbSO4 battery.

    The Shorai also didn't last very long, I had one replaced under warranty after about a year, and the replacement started screwing up after about year too. Many guys who've tried the Shorai on the big bikes have reported similar experiences, and they used the Shorai chargers whereas I just stuck with my Battery Tender charger (does not have a de-sulphur feature).

    I hope the KTM version is an improvement on the Shorai plus the much smaller load requirements of the 500cc engine and minimal other electronics.
    TBA 904, IBA 27221

    FJR1300A



    "Dirty bikes are like dirty girls......they are the most fun and have the best stories"
    ”He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves, nor shall receive either” - Benjamin Franklin

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    1,592

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    I looked at the Shorai battery, but my understanding is that it doesn't have a cell balancing control circuit built in to it. As such you'd need to use the Shorai charger to get the longest life (cells could become unbalanced during normal use without using the Shorai charger). Reviews on Advrider liked the EarthX battery more, which I think has a cell balance control circuit built in, but couldn't find a retail source in Japan.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Down by the river
    Posts
    17,156

    Default

    For the sake of full disclosure, James never heeded Shorai's instruction to not regularly tend their batteries on a conventional charger because he couldn't think of a reason why that would be necessary. He killed one by doing that, then did the same thing with the second one and killed it as well.

    Yet he still blames the batteries, not his daily tending against Shorai's own instructions....



    In contrast, I followed Shorai instructions and only used my Battery Tender to briefly charge up the Shorais I had in my TDM and Dakar when the resting voltage dropped below a certain level and then unplugged it. No issues at all in the couple years I used them.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    10,165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Twinrider View Post
    I followed Shorai instructions and only used my Battery Tender to briefly charge up the Shorais I had in my TDM and Dakar when the resting voltage dropped below a certain level and then unplugged it. No issues at all in the couple years I used them.
    Is there some kind of "lithium-friendly" tender that you can just leave plugged in all the time? I wouldn't trust myself to remember when to top them up and when to unplug them.
    IBA #42657
    96 Honda XR250 Baja
    09 BMW R1200GS Adventure ・ 09 KTM 990 SMT (sold) ・ 97 Honda X4 ・ 95 Kawasaki ZZR400 (sold)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    1,592

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    If the lithium battery has a built
    in cell load balancing circuit you can use a regular battery tender, so long as it doesn't have a de-sulphur mode (voltage rises above 14.6V damaging the battery).

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Kanagawa-ken
    Posts
    1,157

    Default

    AFAIK most sport bikes running the lithiums don't have an issue, but I do know first-hand of two guys riding Harley's that have killed Lithium batts in under a year. Apparently the high load placed on the lithiums by the twin engine shortens their battery life considerably.
    Quote Originally Posted by tokyojrock View Post
    I am going over to Keisho next week to eat the owners ass!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Down by the river
    Posts
    17,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Jinbaiquerre View Post
    Is there some kind of "lithium-friendly" tender that you can just leave plugged in all the time? I wouldn't trust myself to remember when to top them up and when to unplug them.
    Shorai's instructions say it's OK to use non-desulphating chargers. It just warns against leaving them plugged in all the time because doing so will overcharge the battery and cook it, even if the charger light indicates it's "tending."


    If your bike has a voltmeter installed, it's easy enough to monitor the battery's state of charge. Shorai recommends it be topped up if it drops below 13.1, which shouldn't happen if the bike is ridden once a month or more.

    Shorai does sell a charger made for its batteries that you can leave hooked up all the time, although it's really not necessary to do so. I think the fact that they sell this charger led JK to believe that they were angling for sales when they said you shouldn't tend it on a regular charger.

    Here is a FAQ:
    http://shoraipower.com/faq

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    6,953

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Twinrider View Post
    Shorai's instructions say it's OK to use non-desulphating chargers. It just warns against leaving them plugged in all the time because doing so will overcharge the battery and cook it, even if the charger light indicates it's "tending."


    If your bike has a voltmeter installed, it's easy enough to monitor the battery's state of charge. Shorai recommends it be topped up if it drops below 13.1, which shouldn't happen if the bike is ridden once a month or more.

    Shorai does sell a charger made for its batteries that you can leave hooked up all the time, although it's really not necessary to do so. I think the fact that they sell this charger led JK to believe that they were angling for sales when they said you shouldn't tend it on a regular charger.

    Here is a FAQ:
    http://shoraipower.com/faq
    You'll note that in my original post I preemptively mentioned that a number of FJR owners who tried the Shorai and fell for the marketing BS and purchased the Shorai chargers pretty much experienced similar failures and all are now back to the Lead Acid Batteries.

    To this day I do NOT believe the sales hype from Shorai about a trickle charger (without the desuphication feature) being/doing anything different from what the battery would experience during frequent use, if anything the charger is gentler on the battery than the bike's charging system and huge, sharp current draws of starting, Soltek HID lights powering up, etc.
    TBA 904, IBA 27221

    FJR1300A



    "Dirty bikes are like dirty girls......they are the most fun and have the best stories"
    ”He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves, nor shall receive either” - Benjamin Franklin

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Down by the river
    Posts
    17,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesK View Post

    To this day I do NOT believe the sales hype from Shorai about a trickle charger (without the desuphication feature) being/doing anything different from what the battery would experience during frequent use, if anything the charger is gentler on the battery than the bike's charging system and huge, sharp current draws of starting, Soltek HID lights powering up, etc.
    And there's the argument that I heard many times: Mark or any other knowledgable engineer types want to point out to JK why it's wrong?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    1,592

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    Quote Originally Posted by Twinrider View Post
    And there's the argument that I heard many times: Mark or any other knowledgable engineer types want to point out to JK why it's wrong?
    AFAIK the big difference is that the Shorai charger is able to balance the all of the cells in the Shorai battery. To do this the Shorai charger use a special cable and plug (with multiple connections). A simple battery tender can't do this. This is one reason I selected the KTM (JMT) battery, because it has the cell balancing control circuit built into the battery (as does the EarthX battery).

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    6,953

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Markw View Post
    AFAIK the big difference is that the Shorai charger is able to balance the all of the cells in the Shorai battery. To do this the Shorai charger use a special cable and plug (with multiple connections). A simple battery tender can't do this. This is one reason I selected the KTM (JMT) battery, because it has the cell balancing control circuit built into the battery (as does the EarthX battery).
    I totally get that point, however, when the battery is in the bike, it's being charged, sometimes quite harshly by the stator in a way that most closely resembles a regular charger than the specialized Shorai charger designed to distribute the charging load across the cells.
    TBA 904, IBA 27221

    FJR1300A



    "Dirty bikes are like dirty girls......they are the most fun and have the best stories"
    ”He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves, nor shall receive either” - Benjamin Franklin

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    1,592

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesK View Post
    I totally get that point, however, when the battery is in the bike, it's being charged, sometimes quite harshly by the stator in a way that most closely resembles a regular charger than the specialized Shorai charger designed to distribute the charging load across the cells.
    I agree. And that's why I decided against a Shorai battery. AFAIK the JMT and EarthX batteries (with built in cell balance control circuits) perform cell balancing whether they're in use in the bike, or connected to a tender.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Down by the river
    Posts
    17,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesK View Post
    I totally get that point, however, when the battery is in the bike, it's being charged, sometimes quite harshly by the stator in a way that most closely resembles a regular charger than the specialized Shorai charger designed to distribute the charging load across the cells.
    Yep, that's your theory despite having no expertise in lithium iron battery engineering and you're sticking to it despite killing two batteries while following it.

    Next question: Do you believe cigarettes cause cancer?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Hiroo, Tokyo
    Posts
    641

    Default KTM Lithium Battery

    Gets popcorn. Sits down.
    RedSquare
    Some pithy saying about biking, or a quote from a self-styled guru. Take your pick.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Down by the river
    Posts
    17,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Markw View Post
    I agree. And that's why I decided against a Shorai battery. AFAIK the JMT and EarthX batteries (with built in cell balance control circuits) perform cell balancing whether they're in use in the bike, or connected to a tender.
    Looks like your JMT battery is lithium ion, not iron. In other words, the kind that catch fire....

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •